In our community it’s veiled as religiosity. It’s holier to just do it then engage in forplay. Couples don’t meet during engagement, but doing it the first night is a mitzvah. There is zero regard for the female sexual experience in the way our community teaches marrriage and sexuality. In the non Jewish world such a guy is a jerk and a misogynist and they are freely called out. Women also have the awareness that what’s happening is wrong, and they can much more easily walk away. So it’s true that such men exist, but women aren’t forced (culturally and intellectually) to stay with them, resulting in these men being super unpopular and bitter
No, I’m not thank God, this is mainstream chareidi and varies only slightly in each community in the chareidi/ ultra orthodox world. Fortunately I had parents who were amazing and open and I didn’t personally experience this. I am the exception though, the rules are the norm.
The fact that Halacha discusses foreplay is irrelevant to the discussion here. The fact is that in most Chassidish communities, the norm is as described in the post.
Two things to point out:
1. The fact that it happens in the secular world as well makes zero difference in the discussion of whether it's right or wrong.
2. As Esther pointed out, you cannot compare sex ed in the secular world to sex ed in the chassidish world. They are wildly different. Therefore, someone having sex having had a secular education and someone having sex having had a chassidish education is also wildly different.
I was not justifying at all. I agree that Its a tragedy that it happens in the frum world. It's a very unfortunate consequence from the lack of sex Ed and fear of זרע לבטלה. I agree that frum schools need sex Ed and I would even advocate for more mingling between the sexes.
I have specific anecdotes but I didn’t want to put them here as of now. I don’t know if this is more common in chassidish vs yeshivish communities ? I’ll try to find an article from Elisheva Liss that tries to explain how this might happen. I think there’s more to dig though.
Kudos to that couple for recognizing something was wrong and getting help. I can only imagine for every couple that does, there are probably a dozen who don’t.
The word rape has a well-deserved negative connotation.
When a couple is misguided, thinking they are 'doing a mitzvah' that requires sacrifice, it may technically be rape, it may cause trauma similar to rape, but it is not even similar to true rape. Mrs. Liss' is doing a disservice to victims by comparing their experiences to people who have been roofied or grabbed in isolated alleyways.
I think this happens among couples in the secular world as well. Horny guys who can't take no for an answer.
In our community it’s veiled as religiosity. It’s holier to just do it then engage in forplay. Couples don’t meet during engagement, but doing it the first night is a mitzvah. There is zero regard for the female sexual experience in the way our community teaches marrriage and sexuality. In the non Jewish world such a guy is a jerk and a misogynist and they are freely called out. Women also have the awareness that what’s happening is wrong, and they can much more easily walk away. So it’s true that such men exist, but women aren’t forced (culturally and intellectually) to stay with them, resulting in these men being super unpopular and bitter
So sorry to hear. You're a חסידת גור? In Israel they're infamous for that.
No, I’m not thank God, this is mainstream chareidi and varies only slightly in each community in the chareidi/ ultra orthodox world. Fortunately I had parents who were amazing and open and I didn’t personally experience this. I am the exception though, the rules are the norm.
Wow. So sorry to hear. Halacha discusses foreplay, it's called פיוס.
The fact that Halacha discusses foreplay is irrelevant to the discussion here. The fact is that in most Chassidish communities, the norm is as described in the post.
Two things to point out:
1. The fact that it happens in the secular world as well makes zero difference in the discussion of whether it's right or wrong.
2. As Esther pointed out, you cannot compare sex ed in the secular world to sex ed in the chassidish world. They are wildly different. Therefore, someone having sex having had a secular education and someone having sex having had a chassidish education is also wildly different.
I was not justifying at all. I agree that Its a tragedy that it happens in the frum world. It's a very unfortunate consequence from the lack of sex Ed and fear of זרע לבטלה. I agree that frum schools need sex Ed and I would even advocate for more mingling between the sexes.
I don’t doubt that this is prevalent. Just wondering what you’re basing these questions on. Are they just musings or do you have specific anecdotes?
Either way, very important topic. Thanks for bringing it up.
I have specific anecdotes but I didn’t want to put them here as of now. I don’t know if this is more common in chassidish vs yeshivish communities ? I’ll try to find an article from Elisheva Liss that tries to explain how this might happen. I think there’s more to dig though.
“I used to rape my wife”
https://www.elishevaliss.com/post/i-used-to-rape-my-wife
Wow! This broke my heart.
Kudos to that couple for recognizing something was wrong and getting help. I can only imagine for every couple that does, there are probably a dozen who don’t.
Shocking.
So sad. And it's mainly due to halacha and anxiety regarding זרע לבטלה. Intimate Judaism is a great podcast which discusses this issue.
It’s in everything (which is admittedly not much) I’ve seen her write about the issue
The word rape has a well-deserved negative connotation.
When a couple is misguided, thinking they are 'doing a mitzvah' that requires sacrifice, it may technically be rape, it may cause trauma similar to rape, but it is not even similar to true rape. Mrs. Liss' is doing a disservice to victims by comparing their experiences to people who have been roofied or grabbed in isolated alleyways.